Testimony of a Mormon Bishop.

This is an amazing testimony I have come across recently of a faithful Mormon of 60+ years, serving various callings including being a bishop being confronted by the many issues of Mormon History and responding in a very interesting way.

This video is a snippet from a recent episode of heart of the matter hosted by Shawn Mccraney, the full show including more from this bishop can be found here.

Heart of the Matter is a show I fully recommend, its hosted by Shawn Mccraney, previously a Mormon for 40 years, now a very passionate Christian whose desire is to lead people to Christ, primarily through His tv show Heart of the Matter, you can watch previous and new shows at this address www.hotm.tv

Please watch the video above and leave your thoughts.

32 thoughts on “Testimony of a Mormon Bishop.”

  1. It would appear that the use of a “Mormon Bishop” is to try to give this man’s testimony more authority. The reality however is… there is little between a Bishop and a man with no church responsibility. They are still men. They are entitled to understand the gospel how they wish.

    This Bishop has chosen to be deceived by the craftiness of Satan, and that is something that he will have to realise one day. It is sad and unfortunate, but Christ saw that many of the elect would fall away.

    I have personally studied many of the issues discussed by this man. I even stood in a sacrament meeting and explained the various accounts of the first vision of Joseph to the congregation. When fully understood, it can be explained. It would appear that this Bishop knew nothing of them, which is a shame. I feel it is important to be aware of these issues, and the many anti-mormon attacks on the church. I spent time studying them, and it strengthened my testimony.

    I have no time to re-read all the documentation these days, but I have studied in the past and knew than, and know now that there is nothing in them. The Book of Mormon is the word of God and Joseph Smith was chosen by him to restore his truth in accordance with his Will.

    Whilst these blogs and anti-mormon sites will continue to deceive many of the elect of God… I will not be so deceived.

    Like

    1. Hey manxmandan good to hear from you, its inevitable that many lds like yourself will watch this and say that, I am surprised there have not been others so far.

      However the reality is many are facing these issues and seeing that there is too much to be ignored and are responding, this wil carry on all the more as people
      face up to the many issues Joseph Smith raised.

      I can understand why many look at these and find ways of explaining them away as when you have invested to much time and effort and emotion into something it must be almost impossible to imagine that you have been wrong. I wont be patronising and say i hope you realize etc however I am glad you have visited here and if you ever want a bit of dialogue on some of these issues let me know.

      Like

      1. Thanks Bobby.

        I agree many face these issues, and feel they have found something new.. and have been deceived. I personally feel that the church ought to do more to be open and explain issues like this, but I also recognize that it’s a hard position to be in. Some matters can be complicated, and are hard to be understood. I expect the church feels that it’s easier to not open a can of worms… but that’s true of all churches really. Not all members of churches have a deep understanding of all the issues, and some attend church for more simplistic reasons i.e. they believe in Christ, they have friends there….

        You are making an effort to reach out to LDS, and I can appreciate that. We are all entitled to our opinions and we both believe we are right =) You are doing what you believe to be right, and are trying to serve God as best you can. I fully respect that.

        I similarly will use my blog as a means of reaching out to Christians, and to address simple matters that they misunderstand with LDS teachings. We are both working at the same thing, just on opposite sides.. =)

        Cheers

        Like

  2. madmanxman, I found your remarks rather puzzling and wonder if you would help me understand. To a Christian, going to church because you believe in Jesus is anything but a “simplistic reason” and I am surprised you suggest it is. You can have any number of reasons for going to church, as you rightly point out, but if you don’t believe in Jesus all your reasons mean nothing. Perhaps you were thinking of something else, perhaps simplistic belief. I find that Mormons tend to characterise Christian faith as simplistic and when I look at my Christian friends I have to wonder why.

    You write that you will continue to “reach out to Christians” and I suppose that is fair enough. But if Mormons insist that they are Christians that too is puzzling. In 25 years as a Christian I have sometimes heard Christians commend their particular church or denomination but I have never been approached by a Christian from another denomination or church attempting to convert me. Indeed, in my home city some 25 churches, from a number of denominations – Baptist, Pentecostal, Apostolic, Free Evangelical, etc. – work together to evangelise the lost and meet regularly together as leaders and congregations. If you become a Christian it matters not which church you end up fellowshipping with as long as you have fellowship with Christ and his local church.
    I fully understand that Mormonism is so far removed from what other churches believe that you feel you have a new message, a revelation through prophets and apostles that hold exclusive authority. On that basis, of course, it is reasonable for you to evangelise Christians. But to insist, “We are Christians too” when it is clear that you disagree so fundamentally with other churches that you feel people nee to be evangelised away from those churches is surely contradictory?

    If those differences are so fundamental that each must evangelise the other then surely they cannot both be fundamentally the same and one must be right and the other wrong? I have no problem with this model but wonder how you can be both “a Christian too” and evangelise Christians away from Christian churches. In any event, thanks for having an open and honest attitude in your responses.

    Like

  3. Hi Mike

    Wehn you address me, I’d appreciate it if you gave me more respect. Calling me “mad” is unnecessary.

    My comments regarding church attendance was in reference to the fact that we all attend church for different reasons. Some are heavily rooted in faith, others are quite fragile, and have little belief. It is quite common for indidivuals to attend church because they are looking for ‘friends’ rather than because of what the church particularly teaches. I often find that many Christians throughout all churches (my own church included) don’t quite realise what the doctrines are that their denomination teaches.

    We are Christians yes, however we still have reason to evangelise to other Christians. We have additional truth that they do not – e.g. the Book of Mormon – and it is our responsibility to offer this truth to those who lack it. My wife was a Pentecostal christian. She had never heard of the Book of Mormon. Missionaries introduced it to her, she read it, studied and prayed.. and through her prayer she received a strong witness from the Spirit of God that it was his Word. We Mormons have much to share with other Christians.

    This stance is in line with Christianity. Why do we have so many churches within Christianity? – because the various founders broke away from another church, primarily because they disagreed with what the other church taught. Having broken away, they evangelised to other christian denominations, because they felt they had an important message to share. That may not happen so often today – primarily because many Christians churches have so diluted their teachings so as to almost make them redundant – but it certainly happened in the past.

    Like

  4. manxmandan,
    “This stance is in line with Christianity. Why do we have so many churches within Christianity? – because the various founders broke away from another church, primarily because they disagreed with what the other church taught. Having broken away, they evangelised to other christian denominations, because they felt they had an important message to share. That may not happen so often today – primarily because many Christians churches have so diluted their teachings so as to almost make them redundant – but it certainly happened in the past.”

    I’m just curious, are you aware of how many sects of Mormonism there are? Some say as many as 200 and others say it’s only 70. Even if we take the smaller number, that is a lot of prophets and apostles. It’s also a lot of Mormon churches all claiming to be the “one true church” all claiming that they alone hold the keys to the priesthood, all claiming the others are apostate or not even acknowledging them at all. How is one to know which one is the true church? They all claim to be the original Mormonism set up by Joseph Smith, they all claim the Book Of Mormon is true and the keystone of their religion. Which one of these sects do you belong to? Why should we Christians follow you or your sect of Mormonism over another? What sets your sect apart from the others?

    Like

  5. Hi Kate

    Yes, I am aware that there are many breakaways from the LDS church. This is common with all churches throughout Christianity.

    However, the number of denominations that believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God has no bearing on that source itself. The Book of Mormon remains the word of God, just as the Bible is the word of God – regardless of the thousands of Christian denominations that believe it.

    I think you ought to start out by believing the Book of Mormon, before trying to determine which church is the right one.

    Like

  6. manxmandan,
    Actually, the LDS church is a breakaway from the original, just as all the others. So again, what does your branch of Mormonism have that sets it apart as “the one true church?” They can’t all be the one true church right? So as a LDS trying to convert a Christian, what does your church have to offer that the other Mormon sects don’t? Why should your prophet be believed as God’s mouthpiece and the others rejected? When you are trying to convert a Christian, do you make them aware that there are many other sects who claim the same as you? Are you honest and upfront about LDS doctrines? In Christianity it’s amazing how different denominations believe the exact same thing on core Christian doctrines. Have you ever studied what the different sects of Mormonism believe? They don’t have the same core doctrines, but are all over the place with all their different theories and thinking. They don’t interpret the Bible the same, they don’t interpret the Book of Mormon the same (check out the Church of Christ, formerly the RLDS). Most are continuing to add revelation to the D&C, the LDS don’t do that. Does that mean that the LDS prophets are no longer hearing from God? So many questions that Christians should be asking the Mormon trying to convert them.

    Like

  7. Kate,

    So many questions that are irrelevant to you. You have no interest, other than in asking questions.

    Like I said before, the various breakaways within Mormonism take nothing away from what the Book of Mormon is – it is the word of God. Once you know the Book of Mormon is true, you can start to consider the other questions. Until then, they mean nothing to you.

    Like other Christians, we also believe the same thing on core doctrines. There is none more “core” than that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the Saviour of the world. However, there is much that we can offer other Christians.

    Like

  8. manxmandan,
    Help me out here. Is this the way you treat all Christians who ask you questions? How do you convert Christians if you refuse to answer their questions? Are Christians not allowed to ask ANY questions unless they believe in the Book of Mormon?

    “Like other Christians, we also believe the same thing on core doctrines.”
    Mormonism does not teach the core doctrines of Christianity. You need to just start with who God is. Or who Jesus is for that matter. Example, Jesus to a Christian is God incarnate. God in the flesh who dwelt among us. Jesus in Mormonism is the literal spirit offspring of a God who was once a man and one of his spirit wives and he is your spirit brother. No where is this doctrine taught in Christianity. No where is this doctrine taught in the Bible. This doctrine is not Christian.

    “However, there is much that we can offer other Christians.”
    I have asked you what your sect of Mormonism can offer a Christian, but you claim that unless I know the Book of Mormon is true, it’s basically none of my business. Confusing.

    Like

  9. Kate

    I’m not sure what game you are trying to play. You ask for help, but I know you don’t want it. I perceive that your questions are not genuine, and are directed to me more in a hope that they will lead me to ‘realise’ the error of my ways. I have spent enough time in various Christian forums debating the doctrines, and defending against the attacks that are repeated time and time again by anti-mormons today. I have no intention of getting into any lengthy discussions here, and I think I have already made that clear. Your questions would require lengthy explanations, and for what benefit? – would you start to take the Book of Mormon more seriously? I doubt it.

    I am happy to answer questions from Christians where I see that there is a benefit in me doing so. My repeated encouragement for one to start out with the Book of Mormon comes from the need for the inquirer to be able to take the milk, before the meat. I follow the guidance of the Apostle Paul who also taught on this basis. I also recognise that to stem interest in the book of mormon, other issues need to be discussed (and I am working on this through my own blog). However questions about the various churches that believe the Book of Mormon are quite irrelevant.

    Your insistance that Mormons do not believe the core doctrines of Christianity is wrong. There is no doctrine more central – more “core” – than the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is our saviour, and only through his name can we be saved. Indeed, we are Christians – like the thousands of other churches within Christianity. We all believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and this is what defines a “christian”. The other doctrines that you choose to believe are merely appendages to this core doctrine. The Trinity – a completely false doctrine – has nothing to do with the definition of a “Christian”. There are many churches, and many Christians across the world (who have absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism) who likewise reject this erroneous understanding of God and Jesus Christ.

    Your last point is also an error in your thinking. I have not said it is none of your business but rather I urge you to make it your business. To openly seek the truth and ask God for his guidance.

    We do have much to offer other Christians, and I give the Book of Mormon merely as an example.

    Like

  10. manxmandan,
    You said: “This Bishop has chosen to be deceived by the craftiness of Satan, and that is something that he will have to realise one day.”

    My questions to you stem from this statement. I am asking you all of these questions to show you that indeed it may be you who has been deceived by the craftiness of Satan. I haven’t really asked about the Book of Mormon at all and that is not what my questions were about. I don’t believe in the term “anti Mormon.” Mormons conveniently use this term. I could easily call you an “anti Christian” for your attack on the Holy Trinity and the treatment of Christians and Christianity by Mormons and their leaders, starting with the first vision.

    I guess I should explain something to you. I was LDS for 40 years. I know all about the Book of Mormon and the teachings of this false church. I, like the bishop in this interview, could not turn my head and simply dismiss the changes to the Book of Mormon, the fact that there is absolutely NO historical, linguistic, or archeological evidence for it. I could not dismiss the fact that there are 9 versions of the first vision, or the fact that the Book of Abraham has no basis in fact. This is where the pre existence and Jesus being my spirit brother comes from. There is so much contradiction from past prophets and leaders that one has to completely dismiss what they taught as “just his opinion” because otherwise they have to be seen as false prophets. I personally want Truth. God’s Truth, and that can not be found in the Book of Mormon or Mormonism, I know, I looked, I studied, I tried hard to make it fit. I don’t buy the “milk before meat” explanation Mormons give. Mormon missionaries lie by omission every day. If Mormons believe that God was once a man like we are now, why not stand up and shout that out to the world? I believe that God is part of the Holy Trinity and have no problem shouting it out to the world, no matter who thinks I am wrong.

    You were quick to just dismiss what this bishop said in this interview, calling him deceived. I know that the LDS claim is that they alone are the “one true church.” The fact is, there are many sects of Mormonism stemming from Joseph Smith who make these same claims. You all can’t be the “ONE and ONLY.” You can refuse to address this if you want to, you can dodge these questions, throwing the Book of Mormon at me, but I see ALL Mormonism for what it is. My hope is that more Mormons (regardless of which sect they belong to) will find the courage to ask the hard questions and look at the truth within the Bible, just as this bishop did, just as I did.

    Like

  11. Before I respond to anything else let me apologise for getting your naem wrong – manxmandan. ooops! These internet names are so varied and unfamiliar it is difficult to keep up with them. It was not my intention to call you mad and in anyother context would not have made the mistake. I apologise again.

    Like

  12. Kate, I congratulate you on asking cogent and relevant questions. It is sad that a Mormon who appears here to defend his church cannot answer one of them, instead accusing you of questionable motives. But it has ever been this way and Mormons expect to simply make a statement and people will just accept it – or be anti-Mormons.

    Manxmandan, I assume you have been caught on the hop that you should get so very worked up (something you are bound to deny any minute now) so early on in what is meant to be a discussion, an exchange of views. Do you know how discussion works? Or do you confuse discussion with you talk and we listen and accept everything you say?

    You have failed to begin to address my questions but let me answer as best I can what you have said.

    “My comments regarding church attendance was in reference to the fact that we all attend church for different reasons. Some are heavily rooted in faith, others are quite fragile, and have little belief. It is quite common for indidivuals to attend church because they are looking for ‘friends’ rather than because of what the church particularly teaches. I often find that many Christians throughout all churches (my own church included) don’t quite realise what the doctrines are that their denomination teaches.”

    Well, yes this is a pretty uncontroversial statement and I have not challenged it so why are you repeating it as though I hadn’t acknowledged it? The only thing I would take issue with in your statement here is that it is typical for Mormons to characterise Christians as ignorant, having shallow faith and little belief. This is the fond picture of every Mormon when thinking of their poor, unfortunate Christyian neighbours. I wish I could havre you meet my Christian friends who would soon disabuse you of this notion. Don’t be so ready to swallow the founding lie of Mormonism that Christians are hoeplessy lost in apostasy and ignorance. It is sad that a Mormon, who claims to be Christian, should be so ready to think ill of “other Chrtistians.”

    “We are Christians yes, however we still have reason to evangelise to other Christians. We have additional truth that they do not – e.g. the Book of Mormon – and it is our responsibility to offer this truth to those who lack it. My wife was a Pentecostal christian. She had never heard of the Book of Mormon. Missionaries introduced it to her, she read it, studied and prayed.. and through her prayer she received a strong witness from the Spirit of God that it was his Word. We Mormons have much to share with other Christians.”

    This is personal testimony and, while I don’t disregard anothers’ personal experience, it cannot count as evidence. For instance, Kate has told you that after decades as a Mormon she has discovered through perosnal study that the claims of Mormonism are false. Why should I believe your wife’s testimony over Kate’s? Do you see that there has to be an independent authority that will confirm personal testimony? For the Mormon bishop – who you also readily and unfairly dismiss – that authoritative source is independently verified facts. Where is your evidence beyond how your wife feels about things?

    “This stance is in line with Christianity. Why do we have so many churches within Christianity? – because the various founders broke away from another church, primarily because they disagreed with what the other church taught. Having broken away, they evangelised to other christian denominations, because they felt they had an important message to share. That may not happen so often today – primarily because many Christians churches have so diluted their teachings so as to almost make them redundant – but it certainly happened in the past.”

    Well, this is what is known as a moot point. This is the very point on which we disagree and you are making the fundamental error of assuming what has yet to be proven. It is a typical strategy used by Mormons and it will not do. You cannot assume that your stance is Christian wityhout first showing that it is. I believe in Christ but you regard my faith as so apostate that I need to be evangelised to the truth. I, in turn, think your church so heretical that I feel you need to be evangelised to the turth. We have a different God, Jesus, Spirit, Creation, Fall, Scripture, atonement, redemption, future eternity and message. Why don’t you stop using weasel words and admit that we are far apart as the east is from the west?

    Indeed, isn’t it ironic that you are so profoundly condemnatory of other Mormon sects when in truth you have much more in common with them than with any Christian denomination or church? They believe in the Book of Mormon, the first vision, Joseph Smith, etc. while we reject every part of it. When I consider the different churches in my city and the way they co-operate (I may have mentioned this) I wonder why you are so eager to identify with them, when they reject you, and so determined not to identify with other Mormon churches, when you share so much in common. Strage days indeed.

    I apologise again for the mistake with your name.

    You are making the mistake of assuming that your interpretation of events is accurate but it is not. First, not all churches are “breakaway churches” and to suggest they are is nonsensical. I can think of a great number of churches in my home city that I am sure an ignorant Mormon might regard as “breakways” but that are church plants. A church has sent out workers to another area of the city, founded a daughter church to the first, and that church in turn has sne t out…Do you get the picture? Then why are you so determined to assume the worse and think oll of those you instst are “fellow believers?”

    Like

  13. Manxmandan,
    Like other Christians, we also believe the same thing on core doctrines. There is none more “core” than that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the Saviour of the world. However, there is much that we can offer other Christians.

    This is so deceiving. Yes you call Jesus the Son of God, as do Christians, but what does a Mormon mean by Son of God? Mormonism teaches that Jesus is the LITERAL Son of God. He was born spiritually by the Mormon God and one of his many wives. He then was the LITERAL Son of God born in the flesh.

    “The Father came down and begat him, the same as we do now…” (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, vol. 1, p. 321; February 16, 1849, Salt Lake City)

    “When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven… NOW REMEMBER FROM THIS TIME FORTH, AND FOR EVER, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, and be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 50, 51)

    “Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547)

    There are so many quotes like this. Mormon apologists are doing their best to twist and spin this, but the facts are this is what has been taught by a Mormon prophet and also by other Mormon leaders. This heretical teaching is so foreign to a Christian. This is not at all what a Christian means when he/she says that Jesus is the Son of God. This is the problem with Mormons. They use Christian sounding words and to a Christian who is unfamiliar with Mormon doctrines and teachings, they sound just like any other Christian. That is, until the Christian converts and starts learning the truth about “milk before meat.”

    Like

    1. Mike, you said: “It is sad that a Mormon who appears here to defend his church cannot answer one of them, instead accusing you of questionable motives.”

      Yet I was right wasn’t I? I called Kate out for not being sincere in her questions. She doesn’t care for the answers I might give.

      I said: “You ask for help, but I know you don’t want it. I perceive that your questions are not genuine, and are directed to me more in a hope that they will lead me to ‘realise’ the error of my ways.”

      Kate admitted: “I am asking you all of these questions to show you that indeed it may be you who has been deceived by the craftiness of Satan.”

      As such, why should I spend (waste) my time explaining all? Jesus didn’t waste his time with the Pharisees…

      As for your comments about me refusing to enter a discussion with you both – questioning if I know what a discussion is… of course I do. I however have no interest in discussing with you, and I’ve made that clear. Perhaps you didn’t realise, this is a “comment” section, and I made a comment.

      I have mentioned that I am aware of many of the points that the ex-Bishop mentioned above. I however remain strong in my convictions and testimony. Yes, I believe this man (and Kate) have been deceived. It is sad. However, they both have agency, and are free to choose. You of course feel the same way about me, but at least I have hope for these people. You however believe I am going to hell…

      Like

  14. Manxmandan, You see, there you go again, talking but saying nothing, making comment but denying others comment unless they fit in with your exacting view of what their motives should be. You openly declare you wish to convert Christians but then when Christians reciprocate you question our integrity. In my part of the world we call this wanting to have your cake and eat it; in more formal terms it is called hypocrysy. You set out to evangelise and its alright but we set out to evangelise and it is somehow despicable. No one here has pretended to be anything other than that they are yet you seem to feel we are somehow dishonest in our motives. Explain please?

    As to going to hell, well, lets look at what your Book of Mormon has to say about these Christians you blow hot and cold about. 1 Nephi 14:3 declares that my church, Kate’s church, Bobby’s church are all complicit with Satan to lead us all down to hell. In light of this “revelation” the last thing I would have expected any Mormon to do is declare themselves “Christians too.” What on earth are Mormons doing consorting with the church of the devil (1 Nephi 14:10)? Given this teaching one can have nothing to do with the other, you either belong to one or the other.

    On that basis I can quite understand your evangelising Christians to Mormonism, so why are you so offended and suspicious when Christians try to convert you to Christ? Your church has given enough offense for both parties in the first place. Just as you are – supposed to – consider us in the pay of Satan (and I went through the temple many times before the 1990 changes and saw how Christian preachers were shown to be in the devil’s pay) so we consider you to be deceived by the devil. Qid pro quo? Why is it we are so anxious to show you the truth that we will put up with any sleight, insult or abuse in order to reach one soul while you “don’t want to talk about it?”

    You say you have talked about this many times, on your blog, in a sacrament meeting, etc. but we weren’t there so need to hear it now if its true. Isn’t this an opportunity? Or will you shake the dust from your shoes even before you enter the town? Or is the Mormon message so dull and uninteresting that you have lost interest? I can’t imagine Paul turning up in Athens and declaring “I don’t want to talk about it?” You are like every Mormon I ever knew or met. Your OK when you have an audience but disappear when people ask awkward questions. You have far too high a view of yourself and much too low a view of others not like you. If you walk away – as I am sure you will – then we will all understand why and you will not have to explain. You won’t have to talk about it.

    As for me, I am ready to speak of Christ to you anytime despite your attitude and your church’s despicable teachings about my church. I don’t doubt your motives, only your methods.

    Like

  15. Manxmandan,
    “Yet I was right wasn’t I? I called Kate out for not being sincere in her questions. She doesn’t care for the answers I might give.”

    I am being quite sincere. Not only to you but to those questioning Mormonism who may be lurking on this site. It seems that I am the one who has called you out sir. I’ve called you out on your beliefs and I am calling you out on Mormonism. Honestly, all I have seen from you is arrogance. I still have all of my family in Mormonism and I love Mormons. I show my love for them by showing God’s Truth. I don’t see any love from you. Do I have motives? Yes, but my motives are not the heinous motives you are accusing me of. As a Christian who now knows the True and Living Christ of the Bible, I am sharing that with people. I’m not sorry that offends you. Mormons need to get over the persecution cry and get on with the discussion. It is not anti Mormon to ask questions regarding Mormonism. You certainly don’t have a problem with trashing the Holy Trinity for all to see. Should I cry and not answer your questions because you don’t believe in that doctrine?The fact that you run from questions tells me that you don’t know the first thing about Mormonism or Christianity. I don’t respond to you or ask questions of you just for your sake. You never know who is lurking about living their life in anguish because they have questions about their Mormon religion, and the only people they have to talk to, are people like you who tell them they are being deceived by Satan instead of talking them through what is going on. This is what happened to me. I had no one to turn to for information but the internet.

    George Albert Smith: “If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 14, Page 216)

    John Taylor: “I think a full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret nor underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation.” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 20, Page 264.)

    It would seem that you can’t bear to have your faith investigated or examined, but you have no problem shouting out what you think is wrong with Christianity.

    Like

  16. Wow, it looks like you are both getting quite upset. I’m not sure why, as I’ve maintained my position from the start – that is, that I’m not here to debate the issues. I’ve also made it clear to Kate that I would not be wasting my time in asnwer pointless questions. I say pointless, because they are. Kate has acknowledged that she has no interest in the answers, in fact, she already believes she knows them! Why should I spend time going through every question? I won’t.

    Consequently, you are both upset. You are trying to goad me into debating, but it’s not working is it? Now I’m getting called arrogant and dismissive. This is fine, I can take it.

    Jesus was called many things by the Sadducees and Pharisees. He didn’t waste his time answering their every question. I’ve spent enough of my time – previously – answering questions and debating the doctrines. As such, I only answer questions from the sincere. From those who are genuinely seeking the truth. I have a life after all.

    Neither of you (Kate or Mike) are genuinely seeking answers to their questions. I suggest you settle down a little, and re read my comments. You will see I am not debating doctrines with you – so I’m not “running away”. I just refuse to take part in a pointless exercise.

    I already know that this particular Bishop has become lost – because I have studied the issues that have allegedly caused him to lose his testimony. To any other persons who may view this clip, I urge you to seek out answers and if a baptised member of the church, to be mindful of the testimony that God gave you. Do not allow yourself to be taken by the wolves.

    Like

  17. manxmandan,
    For one who just doesn’t have the “time” to debate, you sure do post long responses. I’m not upset at all. As I said, I don’t post just for you. The problems with Mormonism can easily be studied by looking at the LDS church’s own publications. It doesn’t take long for someone seeking to find the discrepancies and contradictions. To all those who may be seeking Truth, open a Bible not affiliated with the LDS church (they tell you what it should say with chapter headings and footnotes.) God is in there. There was no great Apostasy. Christ set up his church and said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. To say that it did is to call Christ himself a liar. It really is Jesus or Joseph.

    Joshua 24:15
    English Standard Version (ESV)
    15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

    I am grateful for the Lord leading me out of this false religion and that I am no longer bound by the gods of Mormonism.

    Like

  18. During my journey away from the unneccessary and unbiblical LDS doctrines I hae been amazed when meeting Christians from various denominations and fellowships to find how unified they are on the core doctrines. I did not expect this after two years of being an lds missionary and usually opening a discussion on the street or doorstep with “have you ever wondered why there are so many different churches teaching different things when ther is supposed to be one Lord,one faith,one baptism?”
    More recently I have experienced housegroup meetings with individuals from numerous different denominations and yet observed the unity in the faith and also a much stronger sense of real desire to worship and yearning for the Holy presence of Christ.
    Most ironically in my journey and calling to coming amongst Christians I experienced a strong sense of homecoming to the core doctrines I always believed which i first learned from the Book of Mormon. One for example, that God is the same yesturday, today and forever. another that God dwells in the hearts of the rightous and other core teachings in the BoM which are consitent with Biblical Christianity.
    Just as the bishop in the above clip was demonstrating, i found the BoM, in context and essence, is Christian and certainly in the most part more Christian than what ‘Mormonism’ has evolved into. It is ironic that the BoM doctrine has been the catalyst to God drawing me away from the lds church.
    My first questions included, if the BoM contains the fulness of the gospel as suggested in it’s title page, why then is so much additional doctrine like eternal marriage and eternal progression of such paramount importance when they are not taught in the BoM – are these extra to the fullness? Why then is eternal marriage, eternal progression and temple ceremonies taught as so essential for God’s choicest blessing and full salvation?
    I have much to thank the BoM for as by reading it I was actually convicted of my sin, pointed to the need for the Cross and Jesus as my only way to full salvation. The BoM teaches that we must be born of God. In some ways it is one of the most pro “born-again” books I have read. When read in context (especially before the changes as outlined by the bishop in the video) the BoM supports the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and that God has always been God and never a sinful man.
    Is it any wonder whilst leaving ‘Mormonism’ behind coming amongst Christians who teach and have these core Biblical (and in the most part BoM consistent doctrines) engraven upon their hearts I experienced a spiritual homecoming more than I ever had while in my own lds church.
    Now, day by day, as the unneccessary or false aspects of my former lds testimony crumble away I find myself on the Rock of Jesus Christ with a deepening relationship and yearning for Him and His holiness than I ever had as an lds.

    Like

    1. Hi Benjamin. A great testimony. It chimes with my own recent experiences. In my own (Baptist) church this week two men were “released” into ministry in other churches, one another Baptist Church in a different Union, another an Anglican Church, a totally different tradition. They will be prayed for and sent out with our blessing and letters of commendation.

      We also have a city-wide initiative in which 25 churches are co-operating in social action, evangelism and worship. As we meet together in a Celebration meeting I sometimes lean over and say to my wife, “If only the Mormons could see how we hate one another.”

      Like

  19. Mike, delighted to hear about these forms of ministry. Thank you also for accepting my friend request on fb. I saw you feature on a Revelation tv programme which included your testimony. It was helpful during our transition from the LDS gospel. Technically we are still in this transition as we are still nominal mormons as our names are still on the lds records but we’ll probably request our names removed at some point. At the moment we are keen to make friends and fellowship with other Christians who have left the LDS church as we need others who can relate well to our journey. We have been blessed with good Christian friends and leaders but of course their understanding as to where we came from is limited. Just about all of our family are very active in the lds church – my mum is currently in Malta as an lds missionary and most of my family think we’ve gone right off the rails!

    Like

  20. Thank you for adding me Bobby, I came across this blog via ‘Heart of the Matter’. I am so encouraged each time I find that God is constantly raising up Christians with a heart for people of the LDS church. Sites like this and people like you are such a lifeline especially here in the UK where it seems there is not yet such an established support network for those leaving Mormonism as in the USA.

    Like

  21. Your welcome Ben. You will find a lot of helful and thoughtful material here as we ll as good links to other resources. By all means ask any questions you may have and we wil do our best to answer them. The main thing right now is to establish a good Christian walk because this will make a solid foundation for your future in Christ. Go to church, read your Bible, say your prayers and be that silent witness to your family that has such an imapct when they refuse your words.

    Like

  22. Jesus says in matthew 16 that the gates of hell will not prevail….joseph smith says hell did prevail .i believe GOD who says let everyman be a liar.Who is like GOD? Jesus didnt die so you can lust after a throne of your own…

    God
    Our
    Savior
    Purposes
    Eternal
    Life

    Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s