We are saved by Grace!!

One thing I have wanted to discuss for a while now which is probably one of the most debated and misunderstood doctrines with evangelical Christianity, is the doctrine of salvation coming from faith and ultimately grace alone. This is a discussion where bible verses are thrown around, past LDS leaders quotes are thrown around and in this setting without referencing at all to the LDS side of things I want to present as fully as I can the biblical teaching of being saved by grace alone, and nothing of works and what this should mean outwardly for the believer.

So LDS readers please relax, for once this post is here to talk about my perspective and not yours, and is hopefully going to communicate something of the amazing love I believe God has for you and the whole world. However please do comment and say what you think.

So firstly what are we saved from?

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Everyone has sinned no exception, what does this mean?

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Our iniquities or sin has turned Gods face from us so that He does not hear us, this sin separates us from a perfect and holy God.

This also applies to any righteous acts we would attempt to carry out in this position.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So as sinful humanity we are separate from God and are in such a position as He does not hear us and recognise any righteous acts we commit as good in His sight. This leaves us in a state of needing forgiveness and ultimately salvation.

Salvation in my understanding means being forgiven, accepted and righteous in Gods eyes so that our sin past, present and future would not keep putting us back in this position.

So how do we obtain salvation?

Ultimately we need to come to Christ, through His work on the cross and His resurrection we can be saved.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Humanity being in this position of separation from God, with no righteousness of their own to demonstrate, could not be saved by works therefore it is by faith that we receive that righteousness.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

When we receive this salvation not only do we become righteous in God’s sight we become a new creature with new desires and a new heart of love for God and the world.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

When we are in this position we are righteous, we are no longer in a position where our sin seperates us from God, we are righteous when God looks at us He see’s Christ and His righteousness.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 4:7-8 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

v8 here is otherwise worded Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” (NIV)

So rather than salvation being about producing works to obtain it, it is more like God doing a work in us that saves us and changes us into the people He wants us to be, this why being born again is a one time event that changes us within.

So what about works?

For those who have a different view to this the question will be “So can we receive this salvation and then do nothing?”

In theory if salvation is by no works at all the answer has to be yes, you can be saved and if you have genuine salvation this will not be shaken by whatever measure of works you produce no matter how much or how few. However is this possible?

If you imagine humanity being like a battery operated toy that when in sin we are dead, we have no batteries no capability or producing fruit or doing anything good. However when we come to Christ and become this new person we are given a whole new set of batteries would it be possible for a toy with new batteries to sit there and do nothing with all if this power flowing through it?

However James says this:

James 2:20-26

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Do we have a contradiction, I would say no, in fact I would say James was a supporter of salvation by faith as much as anyone however He was saying that if you have genuine faith you will display it by your works. What good is it if a kid goes around with this battery toy saying look guys its full of power but he never turns it on, who is gonna believe him and in fact what is the point of that power? (I hope the toy analogy works for you 🙂

So faith without works is dead faith, its useless its not real and its not gonna save anyone. If you have put your faith in Christ and you have no desire to worship or serve Him or change the world in His name I would have to say your faith is dead. However if you have alive faith in Christ then your salvation is real and secure and will be displayed by your acts of faith. What will those acts be? That can be different for any believer.

So why is salvation by grace so important?

You might ask why do we evangelicals speak up for salvation by faith so much? Would it be that bad if we could do something towards it? You might prefer the idea that you can contribute something towards your eternity and feel kind of cheated without being able to.

The reason is that God is the one who deserves ALL of the glory for our salvation, no human person can say look I did this towards my salvation.

Phillipians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

He has started a work in you and will complete it!

This is why in Ephesians 2:9-10 it says

Not of works, lest any man should boast.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In biblical salvation we are His workmanship and we have no room to boast as our works do nothing towards gaining our salvation, however these verses say we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, what does that mean?

I think the big gap we often see in this debate between Evangelicals and LDS is that evangelicals never get around to explaining Why we are saved?

God saves us in this way that glorifies Himself firstly out of love for Himself and His glory and He saves us because He loves us but also to glorify Him and bear fruit. We are actually saved for good works just not by them, God does not want us to prove ourselves to Him as when we are seperate from Him our good works are filthy rags, however He pulls us in and saves us by His work so that we can then declare His greatness and glorify Him.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.

Ephesians 1:11-12 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We that are saved and in Christ bear fruit unto Him, however even when we do this we are doing it out of His strength as without Him we can do nothing.

True Christianity in a lot of ways is the opposite of self-reliance. This is because as you develop as a Christian you become more aware of your need for God’s strength to work through you and you become more dependant on Him as you know you can do no good thing without Him, thus bringing glory to Him.

So summing up the bible says it is grace or works there is no middle ground.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

But God to glorify Himself saves us by His work so that we then produce fruit or Good works unto His name.

Titus 3:5-8

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

So my finishing message is if you believe that you have to perform or produce any level of work to earn any part of your salvation then you are in bondage, Christ died for you so that you would have freedom from all things law and be freed to do good works. In Christ we should be free from sin and the pressure to perform and be freed to do good. Not because we must but because He changes us in such a way that these things become a joy.


12 thoughts on “We are saved by Grace!!”

    1. Hey D thanks for the comment, as you hopefully saw I made the statement at the start of this post that my intention was to take a break from being critical about LDS material and just explain Christian belief. Often we evangelicals get the criticism that we spend so much time criticizing Mormonism that Mormons would just like to hear what we believe, that was the idea of this post.

      Although I hope people check out your link too as there is a lot of validity in pointing out issues with LDS material, is that your site out of interest? Where are you from?

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      1. Hi Bobby. I have read your comments, so you do agree that after we have faith in the Saviour and have been converted to His gospel we have to show Him our faith by performing righteous works. Luke’s parable (6:46-49) says it is vain to call “Lord Lord, and do not the things I say” . So your position is not a lot different than mine, and therefore you must agree with 2Ne 25:23 “We are saved by grace after all we can do”.

        By the way Bobby you are a living testimony of this because you WORK so hard at what you do that you should be an inspiration to all us active Church members Jeff

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      2. Hey Jeff yeah totally works do follow as a result of saving faith, the difference is that you are saved at the point of faith.

        In Mormonism saved AFTER all we can do.

        In the Biblical gospel saved BEFORE all we can do.

        Its a subtle difference but it has massive implications, one makes you totally and utterly saved by Christ, one keeps you at the mercy of the expectations of your organization, whether its Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses or whatever.

        I wish I was an inspiration bud, I think often I am an annoyance to the Christians never mind the Mormons, 🙂

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  1. Bobby, you have a very jaundiced view of me if you think my salvation is “at the mercy of my organisation”, and if that is the case, you do not know as much about me or “Mormonism” as you think you do. My relationship with my Heavenly Father and my Saviour is personal. It has come about through personal revelation to me from them. Following my baptism and the reception of the Holy Ghost I entered into sacred covenant to take upon me the name of Jesus Christ and do all in my power to serve them to the best of my ability..(righteous works)

    I believe where you and your organisation go wrong is that:- a) you place too much emphasis on YOUR interpretation of the bible, and b) you believe that being “born again” is an event not a process.

    Are you telling me that when you accepted Jesus Christ as your Saviour, at that point you were irrevocably “saved”? That being the case. who told you so? the bible?? or did you receive a revelation?

    Just one more point 1 Cor 15:22 tells us that “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” Is this your understanding of being “saved” Is this what you mean by being saved by grace? I think that you have much yet to learn. Maybe this will come about by your continuing to study “mormonism” Kind regards Jeff

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    1. Now then Jeff.

      I know you don’t see it that way, but the reality is that Mormonism teaches that without being in the Mormon Church, and without living out all of its laws and ordnances you will not inherit eternal life, and you will not be spending eternal life with God. Here are a few quick evidences for that.

      “We are living eternal life, and our position hereafter will be the result of our lives here. Every man will be judged according to his works, and he will receive only that degree of glory that he has earned. (Conference Reports, April 1945, p. 139.)” (The Teachings of George Albert Smith, p. 30).

      “The Celestial inheritance is for those who have accepted the Gospel of Christ and have rendered valiant service in the cause of righteousness; those who have yielded obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, p. 287).

      “It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings must be earned” (Thomas Monson, “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1988, p. 56).

      Every movement that says salvation comes from faith and works is the same. Those works must be done in their movement if they want salvation at all, or in its fullest sense. Moving on you said:

      Following my baptism and the reception of the Holy Ghost I entered into sacred covenant to take upon me the name of Jesus Christ and do all in my power to serve them to the best of my ability.

      We see here Church ordnances of Baptism, laying on of hands for the Holy Ghost and now your serving the Father, Son and Holy Ghost to the best of your ability, its all about Church ordnances and your works. I am not working to gain anything but rather as a response to what has already happened in me. Without that my good works would be as filthy rags to Him anyway. (Isaiah 64:6)

      Next you said:

      I believe where you and your organisation go wrong is that:- a) you place too much emphasis on YOUR interpretation of the bible, and b) you believe that being “born again” is an event not a process.

      Well I am sure you can imagine how much your first point here concerns me, I generally take it that it goes without saying that we think each others interpretation is off but no problem.

      Secondly here is where I think your interpretation is way off.

      2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

      Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

      Seems clear enough to me. Moving on you said:

      Are you telling me that when you accepted Jesus Christ as your Saviour, at that point you were irrevocably “saved”? That being the case. who told you so? the bible?? or did you receive a revelation?

      Yes thats what I am saying. At the time I probably didnt realise this, I since know this to be true from the Bibles teaching on the matter.

      Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      Lets take a look at 1 Cor 15:22.

      For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

      Totally. All that are in Adam die, which is everyone. However all that are in Christ shall be made alive, which is those that have trusted in Him for their salvation. The context for scripture does not allow for any universalistic we are all His, which is why this would be the correct interpretation of this verse.

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      1. Bobby I knew it would be a mistake to give in to my better judgement and respond to your provocations. But I cannot leave it there, so here goes with my reply:

        First of all lets get one thing clear, I and all other members of our Church are members of the Church of Jesus Christ, organised again in these latter days, You know Bobby, the Church which the Saviour organised when He walked the earth, and before you come back and say Jesus Christ did not organise a church you will have to explain away which organisation Paul, Peter and the other apostles were baptising their converts into and the fact that John the Revelator sent his epistle to the 7 branches of the Church. Eph 5::2-25 Christ is the head of the Church, I could go on there is overwhelming evidence to show that the Church of Jesus Christ (of former day saints) was organised by the Saviour. What happened to this Church?, I know your wife Vicky thinks that the Church survived and it came down to us today in the hearts of “true believers” well that is pure speculation mixed with incorrect interpretation of the scripture.

        You know as well as I do that Mormons , mormonism etc is just a nick name for the Church but obviously it does not suit your purpose or your agenda to give the true name of the Church.

        So to answer your reply, the true Church of Jesus Christ has laws and ordinances which if followed does indeed lead to eternal life, which is another name for the Kingdom of God An example of one of these ordinances is in John 3:5, which by the way is not the “event” you speak about, it is BAPTISM performed by one such as John the Baptist who had to have the authority to do so, and is the gateway into the Kingdom.. He baptised the Saviour who’s example we follow. This is why the Saviour said the Kingdom of God, or the Church, is among you.

        By the way Bobby you say you are evangelical, is this a branch of the Church of England or have you started your own Church?

        The Church of Jesus Christ has always demanded obedience to its laws and ordinances, for eaxample the Saviour reitterated the 10 Commandments given to Moses, the beatitudes are another example, read again the Sermon on Mount which is full of commandments. Salvation has always been predicated upon accepting the teachings of Jesus Christ. So in fact your interpretation of the bible show you as being critical and questioning the SAVIOUR’S laws By the way read again Matt 7:21-29 where the Saviour gives a specific warning for those who do not do accept these things. The Hugh Scofield edition of the New Testament gives an interesting interpretation of verse 23 it says:-

        “And then I will tell them plainly depart from me you illegal practitioners I never authorised you”.

        I do not really understand the point you make by quoting 2 Cor 5:17 and Eph 36:26 of course when we become converted to Christ and we are baptised we do become a new creature, if we have repented for our passed sins all old things are passed away, and we come out of the waters of baptism to a newness of life. Following this we do have a new beginning with a new focus in life and our old life is lost and we do have a heart which is tuned to the Saviour.

        So you say your interpretation of the bible tells you that you are irrevocably saved, well I wish you well, I personally would rely on my communications with Heavenly Father through the gift of the Holy Ghost which when I am faithful I am progressing toward an eventual reward in one of the many mansions that the Saviour said he was preparing for the faithful.

        Finally you use the phrase “in Christ” many times, why be mysterious, surely when we accept our Saviour as our Redeemer, as our Advocate with the Father, when we accept the great Atonement which he wrought out for us, when we have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, when we have repented of our sins, when we have been baptised and received a remission of our sins and have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost, and when we have endured to the end. That surely is when we will be “in Christ”

        You say that the context of scripture does not allow for any universalistic!! we all all His, are you saying that the Saviour will save all of the Father’s children?, this surely is only true if you accept being resurrected as being saved!!. Salvation and exaltation is far far more comprehensive than your understanding.

        One last plea to you my beloved brother (and I am not being patronising) please have a more open minded attitude as you study the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, your eternal salvation may well depend on how you treat the words of the Lord’s Apostles and Prophets who are striving in this secular world to fulfill their divine commission Kind regards Jeff

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      2. Hey Jeff. Its probably first worth noting that no one forced you to comment on here. You know that when you come on here and make a comment its likely that I will disagree with you and state my thoughts. To then call that provocation seems to me a little silly when you came here in the first place.

        Yes I think Jesus started a Church, no doubt about it. However like my wife I think that Church did not fail. Its almost amusing to me now that I know that no matter what I say about scripture I know you will say its a misinterpretation but Ill let you into a secret, I don’t care. Unless you can start showing me what the correct interpretation is rather than just saying “your wrong” all the time then I think that shows who is the one providing an argument of substance here. The world has seen plenty of religious people that just say “despite the facts I know I am right”, if you want to be another one, that’s fine.

        So, Jesus said I will build my church and the gates of hades will not overcome it. In Ephesians 3:21 we see “To Him be the glory in the church through all generations.” In Ephesians 5 we see that Christ nurtures the Church and will present it to Himself glorious. I am gonna trust this Christ of the bible. Or then I could trust this guy:

        “God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . ” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).

        Yep, this is just not convincing me. Of course I know what you believe about the Mormon Church Jeff, Im just a million miles away from being convinced by it.

        Matthew 7:21-22 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

        22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

        Amazing stuff, Jesus says there are people that will appeal to their works and He will say go away, I never KNEW you. Because its in the knowing of Jesus that you are saved. John 17:3 says this is eternal life, to KNOW God and Jesus whom He sent. In Luke 7:50 we see Jesus say to the peasant woman your FAITH has saved you go in peace.

        If we know Christ and we are truly saved by Him then we can be confident in that Having any assurance on salvation based on works is sadly not to be found here.

        My point in quoting those quotes are that becoming a new creation or being born again is a one time event as these show.

        There is nothing mysterious about using the phrase “In Christ” its a very common new testament phrase to describe those who are “in Christ” much more frequently used than the word Christian.

        I am definitely saying universalism is not correct and that being resurrected is by no means being saved.

        Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

        Some people will not like the outcome of this judgement so to call them being raised to eternal damnation is far from what I or the Bible would call salvation. Of course my interpretation must be well wrong, but this seems to be what it says.

        you said:

        So you say your interpretation of the bible tells you that you are irrevocably saved, well I wish you well, I personally would rely on my communications with Heavenly Father through the gift of the Holy Ghost which when I am faithful I am progressing toward an eventual reward in one of the many mansions that the Saviour said he was preparing for the faithful.

        Yep I would rather do what the bereans did and search the scriptures in Acts 17 than rely on my subjective experience. The FLDS guys are cetain your church is in apostasy with the same basis you have.

        I go to Middlesbrough Community Church that was most certainly not started by me.

        And I will carry on looking at the words of your apostles and prophets but they far from make me want to be Mormon.

        Would you believe this was supposed to be my way of giving a short answer. I love you Jeff and will talk soon. I know you probably look at me with the same kind of compassion I look at you with lets keep that in mind and remember we have the best intentions for each other. That said you are going to need to do better than just tell me I am wrong all the time with little basis for it if you want to carry on discussions like this.

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  2. Hey Bobby, Come come why do you write so much on so many topics unless you want to provoke comment, (and then call them silly), from others especially members of our Church who follow Peter’s council (1 Peter 3:15)

    Another comment then, I do not care that you do not care, I would call it the height of arrogance to assume your interpretation of scripture is correct and another’s is wrong. You request that I show by reason why I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ left the earth because of aposatsy, well consider the following,

    Matt 16:13-18 tells us of a conversation between the Apostles and the Saviour, wherein Jesus asks “Who do men say that I the Son of man am” following different opinions Jesus asks Peter “but whom say ye that I am”? Peter answers “Thou art the Christ, the Son of he living God”. Then the Saviour very important information, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona; for flesh and blood hath not revealed IT unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven) (I emphasis IT because It means the process by which Peter was given this information) the Saviour then continues ” Thou art Peter, and upon THIS rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against IT.

    So the foundation or rock upon which the Church was to be built was not on Peter as the Catholic Church and probably the Anglican Church believe, it was to be built upon the foundation of revelation from God.

    While ever the Church was receiving revelation from God, following the crucifixion of Christ, the gates of hell did not prevail, but following the death of the apostles,as predicted by them there came a great falling away from the truths taught by them. Every epistle that Paul sent to the various branches of the Church is an argument against the apostasy that began even while he lived.

    Because of this apostasy grew and without the apostolic guidance given by revelation from God the various branches of the Church our Heavenly Father withheld the necessary revelation and the world was plunged into the dark ages. Therefore the gates of hell did prevail against the apostate Church.

    My interpretation of Eph 3:21 Of course because the glory is in the Church while ever it is on the earth through all generations Eph 5 Eventually at the end of times Christ will present His Church which he nourishes by revelation to His Father.

    One last point before leaving this I asked you a very important question concerning the Church which you belonged to which you kindly informed me. Let me ask you therefore if you attend the Church of Jesus Christ, which you claim never left the earth, does the Middlesbrough Community Church claim to led by revelation, is your Church built as Eph2::19-20 tells us, on the foundation of apostles and prophets who receive this becessary revelation?

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints is built upon such a foundation and also is led by revelation from God. So as promised by the Saviour it will prevail against the gates of hell, even though it may be called secular humanism, atheism, Signature Books, Mormonthink, Mormonisminvestigated, etc etc. or any other such sites. It must be galling that the Church still is growing in spite of all this onslaught.

    Lets move now and let me comment on your reference in the DHC 6:408-409. I think it maybe is the want of prophets to maybe be occasionally given over to boasting. Paul suffered from this as well as Joseph Smith, 2 Cor 10 is one of the examples. I have been a student of the life of Josph Smith for many years and when one considers the trials of life, the persecution that he suffered, seeing many hundreds of his loyal followers murdered men women and children, The Church which he was instrumental in restoring to the earth. Even though when you consider all of this, I would forgive for his words given in this talk reported by Thomas Bullock..
    Of course Joseph was right concerning many of the followers of Christ turned away from Him (John 6:66)

    Just one final word about works, I could ask you if your righteous works are going to save you?
    or are they of no consequence, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is full of imperitives, words which call to action, such as do, follow, work, strive, seek, ask, strive, etc etc, are all these commandments to be ignored?

    I do not know if you are familiar with D&C 93:1, I will quote:-

    “Verily , thus saith the Lord; it shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins, and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name , and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and KNOW that II am.

    This is my understanding of coming to KNOW Jesus Christ, and this would seem to involve a lot of righteous work. That is good enough for me.

    I realize that none of the above will convince you and nothing I could add to it would be anymore convincing, words on blogs will not convince you, so I maybe I will rely on the Spirit to do this. I agree that we are both exchanging posts out of compassion for each other, and I will watch out for you when you I attend the pageant in Chorley. Kind regards Jeff

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    1. Now then Jeff some interesting points there. You have done your trademark “I am not coming back to this discussion” comment at the end but im sure if I spark your interest you will be back. Either way I want to make some points that others may find interesting.

      Firstly while we may not “care” what each others thoughts are (I appreciate I started that one) I really, really do care what the Bible says. So if you can show me something in the Bible that challenges my viewpoint I really do want to know about it. What I mean by the “I dont care” comment was if you are merely just going to tell me I am wrong repeatedly, thats boring and a pointless exercise. However in this instance you have provided some evidence to your case, so I want to review that.

      Quickly on the issue of Bible interpretation, yes I do think my interpretation is vastly more correct than yours. The reason being that I read the Bible on its own merits and believe what it says. However from what I can tell you have to see the Bible in certain ways as if you dont that would cause a problem to your Mormon worldview, so often you will come to the Bible with a predecided view rather than to go there to establish what your view should be. That in and of itself does not make you wrong. As if the Bible was consistent with the teachings of the LDS Church (I am sorry but I am not quoting the whole title every time, do you prefer LDS?) then we should all be Mormons.

      Interestingly we see right from the start here that you cannot view the Bible for what it says, you said this about Ephesians 3:21.

      My interpretation of Eph 3:21 Of course because the glory is in the Church while ever it is on the earth through all generations Eph 5

      SO what the verse says is this:

      Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

      Yet you cannot believe it for what it says, as that would clash with the teachings of your church, therefore you have to add in that this only applies when the Church is on the earth. Which is not what it says at all. I think often with you and Mormons in general this idea of saying “That is only your interpretation” is a smokescreen for the fact that it is you that brings, misinterpretation upon misinterpretation to the Bible and hide this by constantly crying that others have it wrong. While in fact I am simply reading what it says, in context and believing it. Lets move on to the other example you gave.

      You said:

      Matt 16:13-18 tells us of a conversation between the Apostles and the Saviour, wherein Jesus asks “Who do men say that I the Son of man am” following different opinions Jesus asks Peter “but whom say ye that I am”? Peter answers “Thou art the Christ, the Son of he living God”. Then the Saviour very important information, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona; for flesh and blood hath not revealed IT unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven) (I emphasis IT because It means the process by which Peter was given this information) the Saviour then continues ” Thou art Peter, and upon THIS rock I will build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against IT.

      So the foundation or rock upon which the Church was to be built was not on Peter as the Catholic Church and probably the Anglican Church believe, it was to be built upon the foundation of revelation from God.

      So the foundation or rock upon which the Church was to be built was not on Peter as the Catholic Church and probably the Anglican Church believe, it was to be built upon the foundation of revelation from God.

      While ever the Church was receiving revelation from God, following the crucifixion of Christ, the gates of hell did not prevail, but following the death of the apostles,as predicted by them there came a great falling away from the truths taught by them. Every epistle that Paul sent to the various branches of the Church is an argument against the apostasy that began even while he lived.

      Firstly it does not say that whenever the Church is receiving revelation from God the gates of hell will not prevail, Jesus simply says that they wont prevail.

      Secondly it is refreshing that you do not think the rock is Peter, I wrongly thought you would think that. However the rock is still not revelation, it is Christ Himself. See this fully explained here. http://carm.org/is-peter-the-rock

      I completely fully agree that Peter could only have known who Christ truly was because God opened His heart to reveal it to Him. However by no means was this a burning in the bosom Mormon testimony experience, but rather it was God opening his heart to make Him able to respond to Christ. We see in John 6:44 that no one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws Him. We see in Acts 13:48 that as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Yet we see in Acts 17:11 that the noble minded bereans searched the scriptures to test the validity of Pauls teachings and then believed. That same drawing experience happened with them yet their epistomology was based on the scriptures not feelings but in that process God drew them to Himself. You can see my calvinistic roots coming out here but it is all there.

      Regarding the Joseph Smith quote of course you will defend him but still he said what he said and it was arrogance to the highest human level possible. Your Church may have all these claims to divine revelation and prophets, but claims alone does not make it true.

      And Jeff you can carry on working to gain something I have shown that Christ taught cannot be worked for all you want. This just increases my compassion for you and my fervour in reaching the Mormon People which I passionately love and will spend the rest of my life seeking to reach, You guys have a fervour for God, but not according to knowledge.

      However do not kid yourself into thinking that this means I dont think works are vitally important to display a saving faith and to glorify God, which is our purpose in life. However these works do not save, and cannot even contribute to ones salvation.

      Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

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      1. Bobby Alleluiah, You have actually admitted that you are being provocative according to your opening remarks, I shrink though from calling you silly!!!!!

        As for the snide comment about leaving my “trademark comment”, there comes a time when to continue a discussion would lead to more contention, and as i have been called, from memory:- silly, ridiculous, ignorant, pathetic, etc etc etc, I believe that contention is of the devil, and that is why I have ended my participation of discussions in the past, I would also do so on this occasion if you had not PROVOKED me again.

        Let us first try and again answer you comments on Eph 3:21, if you read the context of what Paul is teaching the Ephesians beginning at the end of v 19, Paul is not saying that the Church would remain on the earth worlds without end, he is saying that we should be glorifying our Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ in the Church, throughout all ages. So I consider you to be in error,d are you not guilty of the same crime you accuse me of?
        By the way I noticed you did not answer the question concerning whether you consider the Middlesbrough Community Church is the Church of Jesus Christ if not, seeing that you say the Church of Jesus Christ never left the earth why are you not a member of it. If your reply is that the true Church is made up of all true believers, then I would still question why that Church does not follow the pattern given by Paul in Eph 2:19-23.

        You say that with regard to interpretation of the Bible that your understanding is vastly more correct than mine, such arrogance borders of you putting yourself in the position of being almost unteachable, I hope I never reach to those heady heights. Oh and that being so, what makes your version of the Bible more correct than any other of the thousands of translations, seeing that the original version does not exist. How can you be vastly more sure than anyone else, the truthfulness of what you say without clarification through revelation, which you do not accept happens today.

        To come on now to treat again the Peter and the Rock story, The Saviour says to Peter that “flesh and blood” hath not revealed IT unto thee, or in other words no one on earth, even the Saviour, who was also flesh and blood at that time, had REVEALED IT unto Thee, but my Father which is in Heaven. There is no where in the scripture to suggest that the Father came personally to Peter at that time so the only way He could have communicated this sacred knowledge was by revelation. the conversation then goes on to say thou art Peter and upon THIS rock, I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against IT The words in capital letters are the key to discovering what the Saviour was telling Peter and us today. This in context could only mean the method used by the Father to reveal this knowledge to Peter and it is THIS rock upon which the Church was to be built. You dispute what to my mind is very plain, but because it would not suit your particular agenda you say that the Church was to be built on Christ Himself. So are you saying that when Paul tells us that the building was to be built upon the foundations of apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ being the chief CORNERSTONE, not the whole foundation, he was teaching false doctrine?.

        Many people have been critical of Joseph Smith, many of them apostate members of the Church so you are not alone, Joseph was told that his name would be had for good and evil throughout all the world and this has turned out to be true, he is only following in the footsteps of most prophets throughout time, many of them also were put to death, it does you no credit to seemingly align yourself with those who would take his life. I believe that Joseph Smith stands at the head of this dispensation of the gospel and at some future time you will have to explain to him why you do what you do.

        Bobby I look upon you like Saul of Tarsus who consented to Stephen’s death, he was also doing his best to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ, I hope that your awakening to the truth is not as traumatic as his was

        Well Bobby I guess that is all I want to say so I will look out for you at the Preston Temple, I am afraid though that your demonstration will be as unsuccessful your collegue Chris Ralph’s letters and Steve Boor’s action with the “Luther’s 95 thesis” Jeff

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      2. Jeff here is where its clear that misinterpretation is the key with you, I never said the words I am being provocative at all haha, though I am glad to see you back. I think your right its probably worth rapping this up, just a couple of quick comments.

        Lets take a look at Ephesians 2:19-23

        19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
        20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
        21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

        This verse alone does not disprove the Apostasy, but we see here that God is able to do ANYTHING, and to Him to be the glory in the Church throughout all ages.
        This follows a familiar theme in the new testament, such as Jude 1:24, He is able to keep us from falling and so on. I think the theme here is very much that if you are filled with God, and this God is able to do anything, He will be glorified in the Church forever. I dont see how looking at this context takes away from that point at all. You see God is so passionate about His glory, that He will personally make sure He gets it, this is a common New Testament/Biblical theme that carries right on here.

        Yes JeffI think while I am coming to the Bible for my theology, rather than coming to the bible with my theology I am going to be interpreting it much more correctly. However as I said I am very interested in what the bible says so if you can show me something from the bible alone that I havent seen, I am totally open to that. I appreciate the fact that you have started extending to that more rather than just telling me I am wrong. I think that dramatically increases the odds of you brining something to the table that could be challenging and worth considering. Try to see what I am saying as a whole rather than just jumping on little statements that I make. You will see then that I am very open to what you have to say.

        And I apologise your right I never did answer the Church question. My Church is very much made upon the foundation of Apostles and Prophets as my house is made upon foundations too. However now it is built it carries on without the constant need of pulling those foundations back out of the floor because their job is done.

        Again yes I have no problem that God revealed the knowledge of the truth that Peter had. However as you said yourself, Jesus is the chief cornerstone, He is the rock on which the Church is built. Have a look at the article I pointed you too, that explains it well.

        Peter later said in 1 Peter 2:

        5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
        6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

        Jesus is the chief corner stone, the rock of offence, there is only one strong foundation for the Church, and it is not Peter, it is not revelation, its Jesus. Everything flows from Him, including the success of the church. This is why there was no great apostasy.

        You can look at me like that, no problem, not a particular worry to me, but rest assured I will never be explaining myself to Joseph Smith. There is one mediator between God and man, and there is one person I am looking to for my salvation, and it certainly isn’t him.

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